Frustrating Laws (Hoping for Heated topics and debate)

[Barfdog]

So I'm in California for the weekend and I'm leaving tomorrow. It just sucks I can't bring a colony back with me to Arizona. I know the damages it causes and the reasons for not being able to, but when the same species that are being sold on the GAN project in California are found in my area in Arizona, It's just a total bummer it can't be done. I wanted to know what your opinions are about the matter, when the same species that is found in your area also resides with a Gan Farmer in another state and it's frowned upon taking it home.

[AntsMclama]

Yea, the whole queen cross state lines thing is a problem. But its there for a reason.
But.. you aren't doing it for the GAN project , you are at CA for some time and you are just bummed about if you find a queen if you can't bring it home?

[Batspiderfish]

People don't talk about this often, but remember that species names are only vague placeholders that constitute our best knowledge of ants, mostly based on the worker's morphological features. The advent of genetics has opened our eyes to many mistakes and assumptions we were making in our taxonomy (take Tetramorium sp. E, for example, representing four species that we thought were all Tetramorium caespitum).

All ants everywhere are evolving to face unique environmental challenges; they may look the same and have the same name (for the time being), but their genes are a little different, and that is worth protecting.

[Serafine]

Last thing I've read is that Tetramorium sp. E consists of over 20 subspecies, most of which can only be distinguished by the shape of their male genitals and some even only by genetic analysis.

Also don't worry, the laws will soon be obsolete when RIFA is the only ant species left

[AntsMclama]

Also don't worry, the laws will soon be obsolete when RIFA is the only ant species left

I don't think the fire ant (i assume this is [R]ed mported [F]ire [A]nt) has the ability to live everywhere but... evolution is scary!

[JohnyDL]

RIFA - You should also consider the idea of pandemics for ants it's not gaialogically good idea for evolution to produce only one species from competition even a hyperadaptive one like humans so if there's a virus or bacteria or parasite that appears it might be capable of accidentally eliminating the species the more dominating a species gets the more likely it is to happen, happens to us all the time though we have medicine and get lucky a lot too

Annoying laws - I think the whole state boundaries is a little lax to be honest it's about not contaminating one ecology with another but even in a state there are hundreds of smaller ecologies, I'm note sure if there are states with deserts, forests, grasslands and cropfields but ants for one under this law could be released to another without breaking the law and be far more ecologically damaging than from one village to the next over a state line. Something like a 100 mile radius from origin is the maximum that an ant can be moved by artificial means would be better all round maybe? Though it wouldn't help you take your ants on holiday it would be far more useful in preventing RIFA type problems

[Barfdog]

I agree with a lot of things said here. I'm just in my way home from Cali now. Abother thing I keep thinking about is how diverse Arizona is, not just being the most diverse with Ants but regions as well. I guess thats exactly why the Ant population is so diverse here. Which in my mind justifys it even more.

[SpeciesK]

No one here has provided proof that any such law exists for transporting native ant species across State lines. The most anyone has come up with is needing a permit to transport foreign species like Red Imported Fire Ants, or official pest species insects (native ants are not listed), or a permit to import a foreign species of any kind from a different country. Where are these supposed laws prohibiting transporting native queens between States? Is it a well-meaning urban myth?
Someone please -prove- that any such laws exist for transporting native species and that it's not just something made up to prevent people from importing and trading foreign species.

[Batspiderfish]

No one here has provided proof that any such law exists for transporting native ant species across State lines. The most anyone has come up with is needing a permit to transport foreign species like Red Imported Fire Ants, or official pest species insects (native ants are not listed), or a permit to import a foreign species of any kind from a different country. Where are these supposed laws prohibiting transporting native queens between States? Is it a well-meaning urban myth?
Someone please -prove- that any such laws exist for transporting native species and that it's not just something made up to prevent people from importing and trading foreign species.

Nobody made anything up. It's the Lacey Act from the Department of Fish and Wildlife, the Plant Protection Act from the USDA, and numerous state laws involving quarantine of major ant pests like RIFA.

[SpeciesK]

I have no ants of any kind. I don't know anyone personally who has ants of any kind. I want to keep repeating that so people don't get confused over why I am even pursuing this. It is to separate what is real from what is perceived or assumed by people. I am after the truth whatever it is, however convenient or inconvenient it is to people.

I am working my way thru your list. Just in general, we are not talking about major plant pests like RIFA, an imported, non-native species, so your vague blanket statement about unspecified State laws dealing with them do not apply.

The Lacey Act deals with -importing- illegally acquired wildlife and plants for sale in the USA. It does not cover native species. And it does not cover legally acquired wildlife and plants in the foreign country.

So far, this only would possibly apply to importing queen ants illegally but not legally. It does NOT apply to native species transported or sold in the USA.